NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

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NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby christian » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:36 pm

Hello together,

attached you could find my first deepsky photo i have taken :)
It was taken with a astromodified E-PL7 and Oly 40-150mm @ 2.8 and 150 mm, ISO 400, 10x300 seconds on a Celestron Advanced VX and a MGEN Autoguider on a 9x50 finderscope.

So now my questions ;)
- Why the nebula is so pink, is that normal? In most other pictures it looks red, but not as pink as mine. I couldn´t find a solution in the color module to change.
- Is there a possibility to reduce the stars (I only found to delete all stars)? Or is this only possible in doing shorter exposures? I think i have too much very small stars in my photo
- Is it possible to making the first steps (lens, decon, crop) then turn off the tracking and reduce the star size, then turning tracking on and go on with the workflow or is this counterproductive? The question because, when i reduce after sharpening the photo has nice stars after reducing the stars, but where the stars were at the original size, it looks aweful (sorry for my bad english, hope you understand, what i mean :) ), but it could be i´ve done sth false (it´s not in this version because i skipped it).

What you as pros thinking about my process in startools? I just gone the steps in the manual and tested the options i had and took this i thougt it looks good (with reading in the manual and the tooltips of course).
Here is the log (I done some strange things?):

-----------------------------------------------------------
StarTools 1.4.316
Sat Sep 03 22:04:19 2016
-----------------------------------------------------------
File loaded [D:\Astrobilder\NGC 7000 Nordamerikanebel\ngc7000_32bit.FTS].
---
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [5.2 pixels]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Lens
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [On]
Parameter [Curvature Red] set to [183.29 %]
Parameter [Curvature Blue] set to [183.29 %]
Parameter [Center X] set to [0 pixels]
Parameter [Center Y] set to [0 pixels]
Parameter [Red Shift X] set to [0.0 pixels]
Parameter [Red Shift Y] set to [0.0 pixels]
Parameter [Blue Shift X] set to [0.0 pixels]
Parameter [Blue Shift Y] set to [0.0 pixels]
Parameter [Curvature Linked] set to [183.29 %]
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 66.01%)/(229.50%)/(+1.20 bits)]
--- Wipe
Parameter [Mode] set to [Correct Color & Brightness]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [No]
Parameter [Precision] set to [512 x 512 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Drop Off Point] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Corner Aggressiveness] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [75 %]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [0 %]
--- Deconvolution
Parameter [Image Type] set to [Deep Space]
Parameter [Mask Behavior] set to [De-ring Mask Gaps, Hide Result]
Parameter [Radius] set to [1.5 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [6]
Parameter [Regularization] set to [0.15 (noisier, extra detail)]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
--- Contrast
Parameter [Expose Dark Areas] set to [No]
Parameter [Compensate Gamma] set to [No]
Parameter [Precision] set to [512 x 512 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [48 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Headroom] set to [28 %]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Color
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [No]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Scientific (Color Constancy)]
Parameter [LRGB Method Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.00]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [Full]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.78]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [1.67]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Rotate
Parameter [Angle] set to [90.00]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [6]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Grain Size] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [Off]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [75 %]
--- Magic
Parameter [Mode] set to [Shrink]
Parameter [Mask Grow] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [1 pixels]
File saved [D:\Astrobilder\NGC 7000 Nordamerikanebel\ngc7000_32bit.tif].


And here is the link to the stacked image, would be nice if someone has time and process it to see a different image :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nja3moki9nils9/ngc7000_32bit.FTS?dl=0

Attention the fits file is ~185 MB

Very much thanks in advance
Christian
Attachments
ngc7000_32bit.jpg
ngc7000_32bit.jpg (498.61 KiB) Viewed 464 times
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby admin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:51 am

christian wrote:Hello together,

attached you could find my first deepsky photo i have taken :)
It was taken with a astromodified E-PL7 and Oly 40-150mm @ 2.8 and 150 mm, ISO 400, 10x300 seconds on a Celestron Advanced VX and a MGEN Autoguider on a 9x50 finderscope.

Hi Christian,

Welcome to the forums and let me just say that this is pretty impressive for a first deep sky image!

So now my questions ;)
- Why the nebula is so pink, is that normal? In most other pictures it looks red, but not as pink as mine. I couldn´t find a solution in the color module to change.

Yes, the pink is "correct" and very close to what your eyes would see if they were sensitive enough.
The pink in a HII area is really a blend of Hydrogen-alpha (strong red) and Hydrogen-beta (weaker cyan) emissions, sometimes with Oxygen-III mixed in (weaker teal/green). Blue reflected starlight may also add to the mix in these areas, as hot, massive blue O and B-class stars are often born there. Your stars are very well randomly distributed in color temperatures (this is a another sign you have a good color balance). You should see roughly an equal amount of red, orange, yellow, white and blue stars in your field.

Unfortunately, a lot of astrophotographers have trouble with their colors when processing for the visual spectrum, making it seem like most nebulas are red (they are not), most stars are yellow (they are not) and most galaxies have a white core (they don't). There is not much we can do about that, except hope they will improve their processing some day.
Final proof that your coloring is very close to reality, is that you will find that your data will have the same coloring, no matter the exposure length or object (another HII area should exhibit the same coloring). Not only is this true for your data, but if you process/compare someone else's data you will get the exact same coloring.

By getting your colors right, there is a wealth of extra information you can get from an image; good coloring can tell you about chemical composition, processes, direction of gas flow, temperature and density.
For more information on the Color module and how you can balance your colors, have a look here. Notice those pink areas in the screenshots of the galaxy on that page? Those are also HII areas just like yours, but in a whole different galaxy, shot by someone else with different gear at different exposure lengths, but still with the same color (becuase they're similar types of objects, just millions of light years away).
- Is there a possibility to reduce the stars (I only found to delete all stars)? Or is this only possible in doing shorter exposures? I think i have too much very small stars in my photo

You can try the Magic Shrink and Tighten algorithms, but another good solution could be the Life module's Isolate preset (without a special mask - just the full mask set). The latter really help push back busy star fields and emphasise bigger structures over those busy "dots" (stars).

All that said, coloring is a subjective thing (for a whole lot of different factual reasons). However, StarTools chooses a default coloring algorithm that helps with the above things - identification of objects and cross comparison (that's why it's called Scientific mode). You can also use the Artistic mode, which will get you coloring that's closer to other applications in some aspects (though ST still tries to be smarter about it).
- Is it possible to making the first steps (lens, decon, crop) then turn off the tracking and reduce the star size, then turning tracking on and go on with the workflow or is this counterproductive? The question because, when i reduce after sharpening the photo has nice stars after reducing the stars, but where the stars were at the original size, it looks aweful (sorry for my bad english, hope you understand, what i mean :) ), but it could be i´ve done sth false (it´s not in this version because i skipped it).


Unfortunately, it's not possible to re-enable Tracking as some operations are incompatible with Tracking (that's the reason why some things a greyed out in the first place).

What you as pros thinking about my process in startools? I just gone the steps in the manual and tested the options i had and took this i thougt it looks good (with reading in the manual and the tooltips of course).
Here is the log (I done some strange things?):


This pro thinks you're on your way to joining the rest of the pros :thumbsup:
I have very limited Internet access right now, but someone else may want to download your data check it out.

Hope the above answers in the meantime.
Ivo Jager
StarTools creator and astronomy enthusiast
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby christian » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:10 pm

Hi Ivo,

very much thanks for your detailed and very interesting answer. So i wouldn´t care about the colours of another images and will so my thing :)

Just because of interest: How startools knows which star should be which colour? Or which nebula is which colour? If you don´t betray secrets you won´t tell, it would be interesting for me.

If someone would try with my data please feel free, i´m very interested to improve my workflow/settings.


Christian
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby admin » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:29 am

christian wrote:Hi Ivo,

very much thanks for your detailed and very interesting answer. So i wouldn´t care about the colours of another images and will so my thing :)

Just because of interest: How startools knows which star should be which colour? Or which nebula is which colour? If you don´t betray secrets you won´t tell, it would be interesting for me.


You have every right to know!
One important ingredient is the color balancing - the link to the Color module usage outlines a few different methods to color balance your data. By default StarTools samples the whole "image" (intentionally between quotes, see below) and attempts to find the average color, which is then used as the white point. This very often gives good results.

Now about the quotes around "image" above. The Tracking feature in StarTools keeps track of signal evolution. This means that StarTools can go back in time when it needs to to consult the data before stretching, deconvolution, HDR, etc.

The Color module goes far back in time to consult the data after it was just Wiped. There it calculates color ratios for each pixel. It uses ratios because unlike color values, ratios don't differ depending on how bright or dim something is. E.g. two stars of the same temperature should have the same color ratio. Outer space doesn't care what your exposure settings were, or how you chose to stretch your image; the same color is the same color. The strange thing, however, is that many astrophotographers don't know (or care) about this. They stretch their color data along with their luminance data, which completely changes hue and saturation of colors depending on how bright an object is.
The result is that brighter objects look different from dimmer objects in the same image (or between different images with different exposure lengths), even though that's not correct/true. There are some (very conservative) examples on this page;

For example;

Image

Stars don't magically lose their color in a star cluster. But so many astrophotographers show this in their images. :(

Back to StarTools, StarTools uses the ratios it has calculated from the historical unstretched data to pyschovisually correct the colors of the luminance data (the latter is the image as you "see it" before opening the Color module). Hope this explains a little how StarTools works!
Ivo Jager
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby Cheman » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:32 am

Hi Christian
I think you did a great job for your 1st photo :thumbsup:
I tried processing you image concentrating mainly on reducing the stars. I think I lost some nebulosity in the process but my result is below. My processing log is also below. Hopefully it can help you
Che
ngc7000_32bit (Medium).jpg
ngc7000_32bit (Medium).jpg (320.94 KiB) Viewed 429 times

File loaded [C:\Users\Che\Desktop\ngc7000_32bit.FTS].
---
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 50.00%)/(400.00%)/(+2.00 bits)]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [2 pixels]
Parameter [Y1] set to [2 pixels]
Parameter [X2] set to [2318 pixels (-2)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1734 pixels (-2)]
--- Wipe
Parameter [Mode] set to [Correct Color & Brightness]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Drop Off Point] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Corner Aggressiveness] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [75 %]
--- Develop
Parameter [White Calibration] set to [Use Stars]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Skyglow] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Digital Development] set to [89.13 %]
Parameter [Blue Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Green Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Red Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Headroom] set to [5 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [Off]
--- Contrast
Parameter [Expose Dark Areas] set to [No]
Parameter [Compensate Gamma] set to [No]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [75 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Headroom] set to [15 %]
--- Wavelet Sharpen
Parameter [Intelligent Enhance] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
Parameter [Amount] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Small Detail Bias] set to [75 %]
--- Life
Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Linear Brightness Mask]
Parameter [Compositing Algorithm] set to [Multiply, Gamma Correct]
Parameter [Inherit Brightness, Color] set to [Off]
Parameter [Output Glow Only] set to [No]
Parameter [Airy Disk Sampling] set to [128 x 128 pixels]
Parameter [Airy Disk Radius] set to [8 pixels]
Parameter [Glow Threshold] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Detail Preservation Radius] set to [20.0 pixels]
Parameter [Saturation] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Color
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [No]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Scientific (Color Constancy)]
Parameter [LRGB Method Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.00]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [Full]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.70]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [1.59]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [3]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Grain Size] set to [4.5 pixels]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [Off]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [75 %]
--- Magic
Parameter [Mode] set to [Tighten]
Parameter [Mask Grow] set to [4 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [4 pixels]
Undo.
Redo.
--- Repair
Parameter [Radial Samples] set to [32]
Parameter [Sub Sampling] set to [4x]
Parameter [Algorithm] set to [Redistribute, Core Is Brightest Pixel]
Parameter [Grow Mask] set to [0 pixels]
--- Magic
Parameter [Mode] set to [Tighten]
Parameter [Mask Grow] set to [1 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [4 pixels]
--- Rotate
Parameter [Angle] set to [90.00]
File saved [C:\Users\Che\Desktop\ngc7000_32bit.jpg].
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby ecuador » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:56 am

admin wrote:There are some (very conservative) examples on this page;

For example;

Image

Stars don't magically lose their color in a star cluster. But so many astrophotographers show this in their images. :(


Eh, in that page you say the Left image is StarTools. Isn't that the other way around?
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Re: NGC7000 + IC5070 suggestions?

Postby christian » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:56 am

Hello together,

very much tanks for replys :)

@Ivo: very interesting you tell how it works, so other newbies will see too, how important the tracking is and for what ST needs it.

@Che: Very much thanks Che! I will try and i think your version looks much more pretty than mine :) I must test it.

I hope tonight i will get better, i´m ill, seeing must be good i saw in meteoblue, so i could take some more lights from another region (eventually veil complex? :) )
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