Understanding the Wipe module

Questions and answers about processing in StarTools and how to accomplish certain tasks.
thewormofautumn
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:56 am

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by thewormofautumn »

Can anyone else figure out why I'm seeing such noisy images?
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:51 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by admin »

thewormofautumn wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:55 am Can anyone else figure out why I'm seeing such noisy images?
Hi,

I'm a little confused about the outstanding problem/issue/confusion? Were all the contributions (particularly @hixx explanation) not helpful?
Ivo Jager
StarTools creator and astronomy enthusiast
thewormofautumn
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:56 am

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by thewormofautumn »

Hi Ivo

Yeah I thought I addressed that. I showed my process steps.

hixx mentioned:
After the second image things clearly went wrong... Did you leave this diagnostic stretch in place? After Wipe , rather REDO the stretch using AutoDev with a reasonable ROI and a slight dose of "Ignore fine Detail". This should give a good stretch with just a bit of background noise which is ok at this point, because it may be handled by Denoise later. Also note that other dynamic tools like Contrast and HDR are available to optimize the stretch locally. Also SuperStructure may help to push background down further.
As you can see from my process steps, I choose REDO the Autodev, and I don't make a single change to the data set but when I get into the colour module my image is very noisy.

Here is the link to my steps:

viewtopic.php?p=9877#p9877

Everything is default, and yet the image is very noisy without making any changes. I understand that I can see that after Wipe, but from what I understand (if I've understood anything at all from others), this isn't a permanent thing, and yet at the colour module, indeed there's a tonne of noise there.
So either Wipe is doing what it should or Autodev is being very aggressive. I can try toning that down I guess?
Carles
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by Carles »

huummm... for what I saw on your steps,

you do AutoDev->wipe -> Autodev (good ) but then... NO CHANGE ? why ?
if you see it "noisy" you should start by increasing Dark anomaly parameter, and maybe
decreasing a bit Shadow linearity .

I mean... AutoDev is somehow "auto" but not 100% ^^; you gotta help "him" a little.
If you set a ROI you'll see difference automatically,but still you might wanna tweak
those parameters.

I think it would be helpful if you check the Unofficial Manual that Jochen wrote.

Hope this helps ^^

Carles
hixx
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:36 pm

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by hixx »

But to be honest, I just don't like learning via reading to be honest (unless it's a physical book!). I prefer learning with either "doing" or watching a video. I'm sure the documentation is perfect for those for whom reading is a good way to learn, but I'm more of a video person.0
Understood, this is why the tutorial section of the unofficial manual is designed to provide a "learning by doing" experience - without "reading" (Ok, you need to read 11 bullet points to be fair). This is how it looks for Wipe:

'Wipe'
1) After removing any stacking artefacts using 'Crop' module, load the 'Wipe' module.
2) Set the mask to exclude pixels you are sure are not background - e.g. the target, dust specks and other dark anomalies as described below:
  • Mask - Clear - Lasso around Dark Anomalies and Target as needed - Invert - Keep.
  • or Mask - Clear - Flood Fill Lighter Pixels - click on an edge pixel on the subject to highlight it - Grow x 4 - Invert - Keep.

3) Choose a preset which best describes what you are trying to achieve (see above). If there are multiple issues choose the most aggressive.
4) Default values often work fine. Wait for the processing to complete.
5) Check the results - Use the ''Color'/Luminance' button to check both results if in 'Compose' mode.
6) Adjust the 'Dark Anomaly 'Filter'' to mask the effect of small dark anomalies (see below). Increase until no further improvement.
7) If you see banding or other sensor issues, adjust the 'Synth' Dark/bias using the appropriate setting for the issues seen. Wait for the processing to complete.
8) Reduce the 'Synth'/Bias Edge Area from 100% if required.
9) Adjust the 'Gradient Falloff' only when there is vignetting.
10) Use 'Before' button to compare with original.
11) Press 'Keep' when done.[/list]

Of course there are instructions like the above for all modules and a lot of special techniques. A user named Guy collected these from a ton of forum questions and submitted these instructions as User Notes in the forum. I included these in the unofficial manual. Ivo's manual is also contained and will provide you more background of how the tool works, how parameters work in detail, why the tool reacts in a certain way, etc to allow a deeper dive.
However you will also find great video instructions on Links and Tutorials and on youtube.

regards,
jochen
thewormofautumn
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:56 am

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by thewormofautumn »

Hi folks

Just wanted to say thanks to those who have tried to help me.

Unfortunately, I'm getting the same results on a fresh set of data on a different target, and I'm frustrated with this software right now, so will be stepping away from it. I had great results in the beginning with defaults but with the same defaults I'm getting so much noise and I can't figure out (even after reading the above) how to control it.

Here is just 3 minutes of Levels stretching in PS (plus a curve adjustment) vs the Autodev>crop>wipe both at defaults and following the above advice in ST.
Image
Thanks again for those who were willing to help, it's much appreciated. Maybe I'll revisit ST in future, but for now, I'm cooked.
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:51 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by admin »

thewormofautumn wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:37 am Hi folks

Just wanted to say thanks to those who have tried to help me.

Unfortunately, I'm getting the same results on a fresh set of data on a different target, and I'm frustrated with this software right now, so will be stepping away from it. I had great results in the beginning with defaults but with the same defaults I'm getting so much noise and I can't figure out (even after reading the above) how to control it.

Here is just 3 minutes of Levels stretching in PS (plus a curve adjustment) vs the Autodev>crop>wipe both at defaults and following the above advice in ST.
Image
Thanks again for those who were willing to help, it's much appreciated. Maybe I'll revisit ST in future, but for now, I'm cooked.
I'm sad to hear that. Something is going very wrong and I'd love to help you figure out what it is, if and when you are ready.

That said, Autodev>Crop>Wipe is not the equivalent of what you did in PS, so I'm not entirely sure why you posted the two images? You would have to run AutoDev (once more, preferably with a RoI in this image) or FilmDev to stretch the image after Wipe has removed the gradient and vignetting. Wipe is not a stretching tool and its (temporary) stretch is for diagnostics purposes only.

Finally, levels and curves cannot be used as gradient removal tools, so at the very least you will want to look into some sort of gradient removal technique to progress.

Wishing you clear skies,
Ivo Jager
StarTools creator and astronomy enthusiast
thewormofautumn
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:56 am

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by thewormofautumn »

yeah I get that Ivo. I've tried too many combinations of things to figure out what's going on here. I can post images of every single combination, but I tend to post just "defaults" that I've used. But no tweaking is having any impact. Even your suggestion above (to redo the Autodev) I'd already done, which looks like this once I get to the Colour module
Image
I know this is likely just me not understanding the software. I don't get half of it. I liked the videos you made explaining stuff, that's what got me onto the software in the first place, as I followed along and got good results.
Maybe I'm just used to Photoshop (20 years as a "terrestrial" photographer) and ST is too much of a shift for me to understand.

No disrespect to your software, obviously many are getting great results with it and that's awesome, but I'm not anymore.
I remember the first edit I did with ST (Orion) and was stoked with how that turned out, with mostly just defaults. Carina (my second image) was the same.
Everything since, nope. Not having an ounce of luck.
Carles
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by Carles »

Hi

was that stack been corrected/calibrated with Flats ? judging by the brightness around
and that "circle" on the lower left of the last image, I would say either it wasn't calibrated or
the flats were too bright.

in these circumstances Wipe can really exacerbate all the problems of the image (partly it's job
too ) But still, if you ended up with that result, maybe you didn't use AutoDev correctly ?
either you set a ROI to start seeing changes, or start by tweaking "ignore fine detail" for it.

it would help if you could post a video with the steps you're following...

As per image comparision, well don't know what to say. perhaps you should try FilmDev instead
if you like that sort of result/image

Regards

Carles.
Carles
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Understanding the Wipe module

Post by Carles »

thewormofautumn wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:11 am yeah I get that Ivo. I've tried too many combinations of things to figure out what's going on here. I can post images of every single combination, but I tend to post just "defaults" that I've used. But no tweaking is having any impact. Even your suggestion above (to redo the Autodev) I'd already done, which looks like this once I get to the Colour module

I know this is likely just me not understanding the software. I don't get half of it. I liked the videos you made explaining stuff, that's what got me onto the software in the first place, as I followed along and got good results.
Maybe I'm just used to Photoshop (20 years as a "terrestrial" photographer) and ST is too much of a shift for me to understand.

No disrespect to your software, obviously many are getting great results with it and that's awesome, but I'm not anymore.
I remember the first edit I did with ST (Orion) and was stoked with how that turned out, with mostly just defaults. Carina (my second image) was the same.
Everything since, nope. Not having an ounce of luck.
Hi again,
even though still think the previous image needs Flats.
I have downloaded again your previous image and made a short video on how I would process it more or less...
Disclaimer: I'm not an advanced user! haha and still learning too but well : )

Haven't done a full workflow...and did binning to 25% (got slow PC and your file is too big for me ) so didn't use
sharp nor decon.. but end result is "OK" I guess. Full resolution or even only 50 ~70% bin would give better and
clearer image I guess :)

hope it helps

https://mega.nz/file/81FjSaIb#NxvGoCi4Q ... o88RrxFtB4

Carles.
Post Reply