M 101

[trobbet]

Hello all,

I haven't visited this site in a while, but have been using StarTools exclusively for processing and continue to love it!

Here's a recent image of M 101. Comments & suggestions encouraged.

CS, Tom


http://astrob.in/97222/C/

[admin]

Wow, nice!
Great colors, fantastic spiral structure.

Two minor nitpicks;
1. there seems to be some ringing around some of the stars. Did you use decon with a good star mask?
2. There appears to be a fair bit of noise visible in the background. Have you tried bumping up the Read Noise Compensation parameter? The Life module's Isolate feature (with full mask set) can also really help in an image like this where there is a clear DSO to 'Isolate' from a noisy background.

[trobbet]

Thanks Ivo!

Originally, I did use decon with AutoMask. Also, I used Life with Isolate on the full mask set. I just reprocessed this data again, and bumped up RNC from 3.26% to 5.58%. Anymore appeared to degrade detail.

Here's the link: http://astrob.in/97222/C/

I'm not sure I can tell which one I prefer.

I'll include my log files here in case you don't mind checking them out.

Thanks again for the marvelous software, and for your help!

CS, Tom

StarTools 1.3.5.279
Mon Jun 23 23:49:52 2014
-----------------------------------------------------------
File loaded [/Users/trobbe/Documents/NEB P Folder M101/M 101 39X170.fit].
---
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 50.00%)/(400.00%)/(+2.00 bits)]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [383 pixels]
Parameter [Y1] set to [430 pixels]
Parameter [X2] set to [2471 pixels (-397)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1667 pixels (-214)]
--- Wipe
Parameter [Mode] set to [Correct Color & Brightness]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [5 pixels]
Parameter [Drop Off Point] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Corner Aggressiveness] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [75 %]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [3.2 pixels]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Deconvolution
Parameter [Image Type] set to [Deep Space]
Parameter [Mask Behavior] set to [De-ring Mask Gaps, Hide Result]
Parameter [Radius] set to [3.2 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [6]
Parameter [Regularization] set to [1.00 (optimal noise and detail)]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet Sharpen
Parameter [Intelligent Enhance] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
Parameter [Amount] set to [177 %]
Parameter [Small Detail Bias] set to [85 %]
--- HDR
Parameter [Small Detail Precision] set to [Max]
Parameter [Channels] set to [Brightness Only]
Parameter [Algorithm] set to [Reveal DSO Core]
Parameter [Dark/Bright Response] set to [Full]
Parameter [Detail Size Range] set to [64 pixels]
Parameter [Noise Suppression] set to [Off]
--- Life
Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Linear Brightness Mask]
Parameter [Compositing Algorithm] set to [Multiply, Gamma Correct]
Parameter [Inherit Brightness, Color] set to [Off]
Parameter [Output Glow Only] set to [No]
Parameter [Airy Disk Sampling] set to [128 x 128 pixels]
Parameter [Airy Disk Radius] set to [8 pixels]
Parameter [Glow Threshold] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Detail Preservation Radius] set to [20.0 pixels]
Parameter [Saturation] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Color
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [To Yellow]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Scientific (Color Constancy)]
Parameter [LRGB Method Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.00]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [Full]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.09]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.05]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [1.60]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [3]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [16 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [17 %]
Parameter [Redistribution Kernel] set to [4.5 pixels]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [3.26 %]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [75 %]
File saved [/Users/trobbe/Documents/NEB P Folder M101/M 101 Reprocessed B 62314.tiff].

-----------------------------------------------------------
StarTools 1.3.5.279
Wed Jun 25 13:02:50 2014
-----------------------------------------------------------
File loaded [/Users/trobbe/Documents/NEB P Folder M101/M 101 39X170.fit].
---
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 50.00%)/(400.00%)/(+2.00 bits)]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [363 pixels]
Parameter [Y1] set to [420 pixels]
Parameter [X2] set to [2464 pixels (-404)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1671 pixels (-210)]
--- Wipe
Parameter [Mode] set to [Correct Color & Brightness]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [4 pixels]
Parameter [Drop Off Point] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Corner Aggressiveness] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [75 %]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [3.1 pixels]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Deconvolution
Parameter [Image Type] set to [Deep Space]
Parameter [Mask Behavior] set to [De-ring Mask Gaps, Hide Result]
Parameter [Radius] set to [3.1 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [6]
Parameter [Regularization] set to [1.00 (optimal noise and detail)]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet Sharpen
Parameter [Intelligent Enhance] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
Parameter [Amount] set to [177 %]
Parameter [Small Detail Bias] set to [85 %]
--- HDR
Parameter [Small Detail Precision] set to [Max]
Parameter [Channels] set to [Brightness Only]
Parameter [Algorithm] set to [Reveal DSO Core]
Parameter [Dark/Bright Response] set to [Full]
Parameter [Detail Size Range] set to [64 pixels]
Parameter [Noise Suppression] set to [Off]
--- Life
Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Linear Brightness Mask]
Parameter [Compositing Algorithm] set to [Multiply, Gamma Correct]
Parameter [Inherit Brightness, Color] set to [Off]
Parameter [Output Glow Only] set to [No]
Parameter [Airy Disk Sampling] set to [128 x 128 pixels]
Parameter [Airy Disk Radius] set to [8 pixels]
Parameter [Glow Threshold] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Detail Preservation Radius] set to [20.0 pixels]
Parameter [Saturation] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Color
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [To Yellow]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Scientific (Color Constancy)]
Parameter [LRGB Method Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.00]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [Full]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.15]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.02]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [1.70]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [3]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [16 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [17 %]
Parameter [Redistribution Kernel] set to [4.5 pixels]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [5.58 %]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [75 %]
File saved [/Users/trobbe/Documents/NEB P Folder M101/M 101 Reprocessed C 62514.tiff].

[admin]

Looks like very reasonable workflows to me.
Wish I knew what was causing that ringing and coarse noise grain though. How does it look without decon?
Have you tried the latest version of StarTools?
There are some improvements in the Tracking feature's algorithms vs 1.3.5.279. They're across the board and may help a little with the noise, as well as ringing. Worth a shot?

Also, maybe try a higher Redistribution Kernel (now called Grain Size in 1.3.5.286). 1.3.5.286 helps you find the best grain size during the denoise setup phase.

[trobbet]

Ivo,

Thanks for the suggestions...

I have been busy trying different processes. I switched to .289 (I hope that's right; I didn't see .286)

I tried leaving out decon to no avail.

I'm a bit confused about how to use denoise setup. From what I read, it sounds like sometime before doing final denoise you open the Denoise module, play with it to get what looks good for grain size, and then back out of that. Later, when doing final denoise one uses what one has learned to set grain size, and "tracking" also learns and keeps this information in its knowledge base. Is that about right?
Also, assuming the above was correct, I chose to go to the Denoise setup right after my second (and final) Autodevelop. Is that recommended, or do you do it at a later point.

Maybe, I have this all wrong...

Anyhow, here's my latest attempt, with Grain size pushed higher (7.0 Pixels), along with the RNC (6.98%):

http://astrob.in/97222/E/

If you would like to have my original .fit file, that would be no problem.

Thanks again for all your hard work!
Tom

[admin]

I have been busy trying different processes. I switched to .289 (I hope that's right; I didn't see .286)

Oops. Yeah - hard to keep up with myself...

I'm a bit confused about how to use denoise setup. From what I read, it sounds like sometime before doing final denoise you open the Denoise module, play with it to get what looks good for grain size, and then back out of that. Later, when doing final denoise one uses what one has learned to set grain size, and "tracking" also learns and keeps this information in its knowledge base. Is that about right?

Yes, sort of. Indeed, you can launch Denoise any time for a preview to see how well it will cope with the noise that is currently visible, based on what Tracking has learned about your image.
To learn more about what Denoise does with the Grain Size parameter, have a read here.

Also, assuming the above was correct, I chose to go to the Denoise setup right after my second (and final) Autodevelop. Is that recommended, or do you do it at a later point.

Per above, using Denoise in that manner will just give you a preview of how well noise reduction would perform, based on what your image currently looks like. It's not a bad idea by any means to check how well you can reduce noise based on what you brought out during AutoDev; for example, you may decide that the stretch that was performed during AutoDev was too aggressive and too much noise will remain visible, even after applyign denosie. So with that information you can redo your stretch with a less aggressive AutoDev that doesn't bring out that much noise. Or you could decide to apply the Life module's Isolate preset to push back noise a little, etc.

Anyhow, here's my latest attempt, with Grain size pushed higher (7.0 Pixels), along with the RNC (6.98%):

http://astrob.in/97222/E/

If you would like to have my original .fit file, that would be no problem.

Looking a little better to my eye, but I'm really puzzled what created that ringing around the stars if you didn't use Decon...
I'd love to take you up on your offer; would you mind sharing the .fit with me?

[trobbet]

Ivo,
I will send you a link to my dropbox, but I can't seem to find your e-mailaddress on this site.

Please provide it.

Tom

[trobbet]

"Yes, sort of. Indeed, you can launch Denoise any time for a preview to see how well it will cope with the noise that is currently visible, based on what Tracking has learned about your image.
To learn more about what Denoise does with the Grain Size parameter, have a read here."

Also, assuming the above was correct, I chose to go to the Denoise setup right after my second (and final) Autodevelop. Is that recommended, or do you do it at a later point.

"Per above, using Denoise in that manner will just give you a preview of how well noise reduction would perform, based on what your image currently looks like. It's not a bad idea by any means to check how well you can reduce noise based on what you brought out during AutoDev; for example, you may decide that the stretch that was performed during AutoDev was too aggressive and too much noise will remain visible, even after applyign denosie. So with that information you can redo your stretch with a less aggressive AutoDev that doesn't bring out that much noise. Or you could decide to apply the Life module's Isolate preset to push back noise a little, etc."

Ivo, I read the above linked thread, but I still don't get when in the process its best to go to the Denoise module and do a "setup", and get the most out of doing this. If not where I did it, then after Decon, Sharpen, HDR, or right before turning off tracking and doing your final denoise??

Perhaps a video would help me and others, but for now maybe just showing an example log would greatly help.

Best, Tom

[admin]

Ivo, I read the above linked thread, but I still don't get when in the process its best to go to the Denoise module and do a "setup", and get the most out of doing this. If not where I did it, then after Decon, Sharpen, HDR, or right before turning off tracking and doing your final denoise??

Use denoise like you've always used it; when you switch off Tracking.

All that I was trying to say, is that you can use Denoise in preview mode in between modules to see how well Denoise is currenly coping with the noise (you'll notice that you can't 'Keep' the results when launching Denoise like that - e.g. you're not even allowed to keep the result when you use denoise in between modules. You're only allowed to keep the result if denoise was launched by switching Tracking off - e.g. at the end of your processing flow. This has always been the case and isn't different or new. By seeing how well Denoise is coping with the noise that was made visible by your decisions up until now, you might want to decide to revisit those decisions (e.g. stretch less, more, or differently).

You're spot on though - a new video is definitely needed when 1.3.5 is released!

[trobbet]

Thanks Ivo!

Now I get it...

Somehow i was getting the idea that this was something new.

I am more than willing (in fact, I'd love to) to send the fore mentioned .fit file, but again I can't find your e-mail address. If you need mine, its trobbet at aol.

Thanks again for all the help,
Tom